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Tell Us What You Think
name: Randall Gorman
email: unbeliever@mailcity.com
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 15:27 PST
The judge says Christmas is now secular and not religious? Try telling my neighbor who lives in a house directly opposite my house and who has erected his homemade wooden cross on his lawn directly in view of my front door. Christmas not religious? How ridiculous!
name: Kelly
email: ruiner_9@hotmail.com
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 19:58 PST
Christmas is obviously a religious holiday. It is based on the fact that Christians believe that it is the exact day of Jesus Christ's birth (despite the fact that such a person probabaly never existed, and if he did he most certainly wasn't born near what what obviously the pagan winter solstice celebration that was translated into Christian terms) Christmas would never have been made into a national holiday if it were a Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim, or Buddhist holiday. It was merely the power of the Christian right in our national government (the same people who stuck "In God We Trust" on our money and the phrase "One Nation Under God" in our pledge)that got it ratified as an American holiday. All Atheists, Humanists, Agnostics, and non-Christians should take a firm stance today so that in the future it need not mar our calanders.
Government recognition of Christmas as a national holiday effectivly endorses Christianity and thus is a violation of the First Amendment. The courts should be ashamed at themselves for this blantant religionist chauvanism.
name: MaryAnn Cornett
email: ddaycon@netins.net
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 21:07 PST
Christmas is a secular holiday. Although its roots may be pagan, and some Christians have tried to establish it as a religious holiday, for the bulk of those who celebrate, it remains secular. Why else would the secular merchandising community seek to exploit it in the manner they do?
name: Michael Alexander
email: alexander@atheistcharity.org
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 21:33 PST
Some holidays like Halloween and Christmas have personality. Others like Presidents day and Labor day are dull. A solstice holiday might be boring.
I like gift giving and decorations and getting together with relatives at Christmas. I have a problem with my relatives being Christian, but I put up with it. Making it a non-holiday wouldn't solve that problem.
name: Stephen Krueger
email: ebolashock@aol.com
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 22:40 PST
I think that we (Atheists, freethinkers, agnostics, pagans) need to worry about other things beside federal recognition of holidays. It's a bloody holiday!
name: Carletta Sims
email: csims@atheists.org
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 08:42 PST
It is apparent that Christmas has become a tradition which encompasses family get-togethers, food, partying, etc., with some households never mentioning religion or God, nor partaking in religious rituals of any sort. But the government's original declaration was clearly a religious declaration to worship a diety. That part should be officially undone, without any grand arguments to the contrary, and let individuals or groups continue as they wish.
The average individual or family never stops now to consider nor comtemplate if Christmas is about a baby's birth and the like, but the excitement of the colorful lights, a mystical time that transcends everyday humdrum; these carryings-on may be fine from a strictly secular standpoint, never needing anyone's endorsement.
However, the absolute declaration by our government that any particular time of year around the sun is reverend compared to the rest is ludicrous, and an insult to the remaining religions and nonbelievers who do not choose nor expect the pen's recognition of their beliefs.
If the government insists on recognizing Christmas, however, the declaration should be modified with pen in hand to literally list any and all religions, large or small, as well as unbelievers with their different names, titles or labels.
name: robert chapman
email: b24@ithink.net
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 09:35 PST
i was born into a catholic family..mind control was started without parent or child even knowing it..got older and started thinking for myself...cannot possibly consider this christ person as the son of god....all coverups start with the word(u must have faith)..bull....i now believe in evolution....now a much happier person since i learned to live with myself....
name: Bryan Katzenmeyer
email: stopthelies@hotmail.com
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 11:35 PST
Is Christmas secular?
A judge has ruled "Yes!"
This ruling peculiar,
I will now address.
A day off indeed,
is a usefull thing. Quite!
People all need,
A full day's respite.
And most have a tree,
lit up with light,
whatever their creed,
on a Christmas Eve's night.
Our shopping for toys,
good-humor and mirth,
have little to do,
with a deity's birth.
Decorations and trappings,
None sacred things!
Nor Ribbons nor wrappings!
... But what of three kings?
And what of angels wings,
and herald sings,
and gifts to bring,
to newborn kings?
What of Church Masses,
such religious activity!
As everyone passes,
town sponsored nativity?
Judge says, "Day off!"
As if that makes it fair!
I can't help but scoff,
and then to compare:
A day off for Jesus,
the start of the season,
but no festival of Zeus!
Hmm, now what could be the reason?
Judge's main flaw,
in her solution:
Disregard law!
Ignore constitution!
name: Siobhan
email: reynos03@uwosh.edu
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 12:16 PST
Christmas would not exist if Christ had not existed.
Christ and his ressurection (give me a break)
are the foundations for the holiday known as
Christmas (and consequently, Easter). Celebrating
Christmas in the federal government, therefore,
is a clear cohesion of church and state, which
is an abominal and long-fought-for violation of
our own beliefs.
name: Mike Lee
email: mlee@fdic.gov
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 12:22 PST
With a name like CHRISTmas, it is undeniably a CHRISTian holiday. But the winter celebration is as old as the harvest-time and spring-time holidays. So like Thanksgiving and Easter, the solstice celebration should remain in place, just under a different name. Unfortunately, the term Christmas has become synonymous with the winter-time holiday and it is not likely to be abandoned any time soon.
name: Nathan White
email: natwhite@mediaone.net
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 18:49 PST
Even the religious complain that Christmas has become
too secular. It seems that the majority of people
do not celebrate Chistmas as religious, so I am
content to leave it the way it is.
name: Larry Beat
email: badhabits@home.com
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 19:13 PST
December 25th will always be a federal holiday,
no matter how much non-christians protest.
Therefore, the federal holiday, occuring on
December 25, should be named "Winter Holiday."
Just as public schools do not have "Christmas
Holidays", they have "Winter Holidays."
name: Kevin R. Twitchell
email: austus@yahoo.com
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 19:15 PST
Christmas may be celebrated as a Christian holiday,
but it is certainly not celebrated on the birth of
Yeshua. Even if this were not the case, Christmas
has become a very commercialized and secular holiday.
It is no longer merely a Christian holiday, it's a
day off. Many may consider the name "Christmas"
bothersome because it is derived from the name "Christ"
which seems to promote Christianity above other religions.
Personally, it doesn't bother me whatsoever. Long
after Christianity is dead, it will be important to
remember the belief system that was perverted enough
to plunge the world into a millenium of stagnation
and readily used by evil men to enslave humanity.
Perhaps one day Christmas will be celebrated for the
death of Christianity, the most fallible and easily
perverted religion on Earth.
name: Alys Hawk
email: alys_hawk@yahoo.com
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 19:18 PST
Even the word "Christ-mas" doesn't sound very secular to me.
I work on a Federal installation, and the public areas are decorated by employees with nativity scenes and open bibles. Need I say more?! I've submitted a complaint and have not received a response.
Apparently, christmas is not a secular holiday!
name: Robert Klusener
email: klusener@jps.net
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 20:51 PST
All the noise and activity associated with the celebration of Christmas tend to make non-christians uncomfortable. I believe practicing Jews in particular feel marginalized by those who have persecuted them for the last 1500 years. We could all celebrate the Solstice together. Isn't that better?
name: Mary Mangum
email: mtmangum@stny.rr.com
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 21:29 PST
If Christmas were a secular holiday, then Jews and Hindus would hold celebrations on December 25. But they don't. They recognize it as a Christian holiday, just as we atheists do. The only ones claiming Christmas to be secular are the Christians! How odd.
name: Jonathan Bashor
email: BashorJR@hotmail.com
Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 07:25 PST
Christmas is a religious holiday. Displaying
Santa Claus doesn't make it secular. Santa Claus
is a secularized St. Nicholas. I would like to
keep the holiday, just change the name.
name: RicH Weinstein
email: Atheista@prodigy.net
Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 08:07 PST
If we atheists want winter soltitice then the
solution is in the approch and attitude the
public celebration takes-of course we want only
secular holidays in general--- but as ayn rand
pointed out there is general good cheer about the
holiday of x-mas in the usa are we going to
be distastefull -- i can see it being outlawed in
our own country (see www.atheista.org) .
but here the effort should be applied to being
reasonable . RicH-w
name: Brian
email: the_natural8@hotmail.com
Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 08:25 PST
Christmas as a holiday has permeated itself so deeply in our society that I don't think we will ever see it go away as a christian or any other holiday. We have been given a sort of balance though with Santa Clause, a definate non-christian, non religious character (at least in our society) to support the commercialism and materialism aspect of christmas. Remember the children and family during this holiday season and concentrate our efforts elsewhere.
Thank you
name: Kay
email: kaysings@hotmail.com
Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 10:30 PST
Richard Ganulin is absolutely right! As the celebration of the alleged birth of Jesus, a strictly christian belief, Christmas is a strictly christian observance. It is a blatant slap in the face to millions of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and other non-christian citizens in the U.S., as well as millions of non-believers.
As an atheist, I am personally fed up with having Christmas thrown in my face every year. But it's gotten worse: I have actually heard some Christians insist that it doesn't matter whether I believe in Jesus or not; the fact is that he did in fact actually exist and he was in fact the savior of the WHOLE world, so I "should" celebrate anyway. Such arrogance!
Kay
name: Paul J. Morris
email: MorrisDO@aol.com
Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 15:19 PST
It's very difficult to disagree with the notion that Xmas is, indeed, the commemoration of the birth of a person regarded to be the son of the Christian God, and is therefore, in the strictest sense, a Christian, and not a secular, holiday. In an ideal world, there would be no state-sponsored religious holidays, Xmas included; such holidays would be the province of those wishing to celebrate them. That said, however, I feel it would be an exercise in futility (and bad PR to boot!) to "go after" Xmas and attempt to remove its Federally approved status. Can you imagine the headlines! If we Atheists wish to remain tolerated (read "not hated") by the majority of Americans, we should direct our energies to more important, and attainable, goals.
name: C. Hook
email: chook@students.miami.edu
Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 20:18 PST
While Christmas can very easily be celebrated
without religion, (I'm an atheist yet I still
celebrate the day as a family day) It is still a
religious holiday that the US government should
not get involved in. However they're much more
important atheist issue's to be concerned about.
name: William Koch
email: heretic7@earthlink.net
Sunday, 12-Dec-1999 07:14 PST
I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time, but how do you go against the Federal Government?
How many "christians " will be praying that this unconstitutional "holiday " should remain in effect?
I posed this same question to my Human Resource Department concerning the celebration of on religious holiday over another and the comment I had gotten was "We just celebrate them on the same day."
Why call it Christmas? Why not give that one day a name and allow people to call it what they want!
Do you really think that Chanakuh is the most important holidays to the Hebrew religion? Very doubtful!
name: Alex Harman
email: mantis@wam.umd.edu
Sunday, 12-Dec-1999 11:04 PST
I think that Christmas has become a thoroughly secularized celebration for the majority of Americans. Its timing was never based on the actual birth of Jesus anyway, which (if it occurred at all) would have been in the spring when Roman censuses were held. Instead, Christmas was placed around the time of the winter solstice by the early church in a bid to convert pagans who celebrated Yule at that time. The Christmas tree, and its ultimate fate, the Yule log (the trunk of last year's tree, burned in this year's fire), derive from the pagan celebration, and their primacy in the modern American celebration of Christmas is actually an annoyance to many fundamentalists which I would be sorry to see disappear.
As a matter of fairness, the government should allow its employees to take the major holidays of their religions (including the Winter Solstice) off without having to expend annual leave; however, I do not see the necessity for a federal holiday--an actual closing of government offices--for those holidays. The reason such a holiday is necessary at Christmas is that the 85+% of government workers who are Christians will take that day off anyway--there is little point in trying to do the government's business with so few of its people available.
-----Alex Harman, Campus Freethought Alliance Liaison Officer, University of Maryland at College Park
name: Brian Gravley
email: bgravley@citcom.net
Sunday, 12-Dec-1999 19:33 PST
Yes Christmas is a Christian Holiday. And I thank it should
Remain a Federally Holiday. Oh by the way the word Holiday means Holy Day
for your info. Thank You.
name: Brock Pellerin
email: aleglory@bellsouth.net
Sunday, 12-Dec-1999 23:06 PST
Christmas [sic] should not be recogized as a federal holiday.
In addition, Sunday should not be a day off for federal workers too.
Deep rooted religous traditions have seriously infulanced how are government opperates.
It's our job as atheists to at least discuss these issues. If we don't no one eles will.
name: Bart
email: bartman99@iname.com
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 01:09 PST
It's unconstitutional to force the recognition of the birth of christ on any one. Easter also should not be recognized as a national holiday.
Easter. That's when they removed the rock from Jesus's cript, he saw his shadow, and there was 6 more weeks of winter? Who needs that?
name: Mike Dudash
email: mcd@ic.net
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 09:25 PST
Losing christmas is so contrary to my whole being that even as a atheist I cringe at the thought. I celebrate christmas as a time to spend with friends and family, to celebrate the joy of living. This is contradictory to it's original or "true" meaning, but it works for me. I view this whole argument as a non-issue.
name: Leslie Williams
email: zippie@zippie.screaming.net
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 12:57 PST
I live in the UK so my comments may seem a little different. I am an atheist and most of what I see is that Christmas has now been changed back into the pagan mid winter festival it once was -technically I suppose this means it is still a religious festival of sorts. As for worship: the only worship I can see going on is the worship of the mighty dollar (or pound or Euro etc..).
name: Thomas Fleming
email: tsflemi@clemson.edu
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 18:21 PST
The Christmas holiday was most certainly instituted for religious reasons. That the Constitution was so easily violated in the past is lamentable, but the answer to past errors is not always to omit the results and act as nothing has ever happened.
Today, commercialization has allowed a secularized version of this holiday to filter into the lives of most non-Christians. As an atheist, I still find myself receiving gifts, and as a courtesy, I give them away, as well. The excuse to spend valued time with my family is appreciated, without any consideration being given to the religious overtones of the holiday. I've known Hindus and Jews who have similarly assimilated parts of the Christmas holiday into their own lives. None of these activities need include inherently religious content.
My point is that Christmas has sunken its teeth into the non-Christian part of American culture, and it would take far more than a change of Constitutional interpretation to change that. It seems far more prudent to take the holiday, spend time with your loved ones, drink some egg nog, and actively oppose other violations of church-state
separation that are more substantive.
name: George T. Muller
email: Independence2@aol.com
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 22:16 PST
I agree, It is a religious observance and as Federal Holiday should be moved to another day of the year. How about August, it dosen't have any Federal Holidays. I'm sure we can find something or someone's birthday in August notable and deserving of Federal recongnition. It needs to be removed from 25 December.
name: John Baumgartner
email: JohnInHollister@webtv.net
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 22:36 PST
Mr. Ganulin's filing of a suit against the official christmas
Federal holiday makes sense. It is a state and church issue.
It is not a secular holiday.
Christmas means christ's birthday
to the believers.
If we are believers in the Separation of church and state then we must in all honesty fight
for that aspect totally.
name: Arlene Holloman
email: redarlen@ix.netcom.com
Monday, 13-Dec-1999 23:29 PST
The season is fun. It brightens up the cold dark winter.
I also like the parties & food. I regard the Christian icons displayed
like I would a statue of the Greek god Zeus.
Adding all the other religious holidays WOULD make this one religious.
I'll gladly stand up for separation of Church & State by protesting religious symbols
on public property, but don't take away my 2 days off of work.
Let's keep some of the traditions, but call it the Winter Soltice Season.
name: Nick Sharp
email: nickrsharp@hotmail.com
Tuesday, 14-Dec-1999 03:41 PST
Christmas is sort of funny to me. It's supposed to be all about Jesus Christ, but for some reason it has become all about shopping centers and fruit cake. I like to see devoted Christians basically degrade their religion by indulging themselves in this Capitalist money machine. If Jesus exists, I think he would be quite upset to his name slandered along side this wasteful time of the year.
name: Diane Wahto
email: dwahto@prodigy.net
Tuesday, 14-Dec-1999 19:54 PST
Christmas may be nominally a religious holiday, but the trappings of Christmas are definitely secular. Just as early Christians co-opted pagan practices to wrap their celebration of the birth of Jesus in, so can atheists co-opt Christmas to wrap the celebration of winter in. I don't want to give up Christmas. Those days off give me time to be with my family and relax.
name: Herb Harms
email: HERBSTER1111@aol.com
Tuesday, 14-Dec-1999 20:04 PST
Ganulin is absolutely right. Our Government's endorsement of Christmas is no small issue.
name: Pete
email: peterz@hawaii.rr.com
Tuesday, 14-Dec-1999 21:28 PST
Glad to see that this is finally coming out. Athough for the most part people do not think of christmas as religously as they used to. At the local Army hospital in Hawaii, I was pleased by their display. The display did not show one single religous item in it. There were plenty of Santas, snowmen, reindeer and candycanes though.
name: Richard A. Angorn
email: angorn@ufl.edu
Tuesday, 14-Dec-1999 22:08 PST
Xmas is becoming more and more secular. I think
that it should remain a federal holiday but with a
less divisive name. The name "Christmas" is an
affront to the millions of non-christian Americans.
Does anyone have a suggestion other than "Winter
Solstice"? Thanksgiving is also a legal federal
holiday. It has religious overtones. Would anyone
want to do away with it? It has become wholly
secular. Perhaps, in time, xmas will also become
entirely secular. It is a nice family holiday, but
it would be much nicer without the government
sanctioning its religious name.
name: T.Maxwell
email: tmaxwell@nobleharbor.com
Tuesday, 14-Dec-1999 23:33 PST
"Christ's Mass", "Solstice", and all other "Holy"
or "Hallowed Days" are very much celibrated
religious, or "believed in" special days. Most
public employees have, or could be given sufficient
elective days off to allow for religious practices.
If this results in a period of low staffing, adjust
to it, period.
What government should do is to encourage "Seasons
Greetings". If no decorations are allowed for one,
there shoud be no decorations on public grounds
for all. If decorations are allowed, they should
be allowed for all viewpoints. As all are allowed
to address grievences on public ground, so should
everyone be allowed to express cheerfull issues.
Government should be limited to providing the
"forum" or space for such expressions, but under
no circumstances shoud Government be involved in
any way with the funding of such expressions.
As an example, protests should be allowed, with
sufficient government personel to ensure public
safety. Handing out protest signs, providing
materials for leaflets and assisting in their
distribution clearly steps over the line.
There is is little difference in these actions
and providing a public display of a particular
groups religious symbols, however common.
name: Shane Hall
email: shall@worldband.net
Wednesday, 15-Dec-1999 09:23 PST
For centuries, we've accepted Christian (and all of its subsidiaries) moral ethics into our penal code, violating some of the most basic rights given to us by the Constitution. While I don't entirely beleive that the Constitution is the answer, if we are going to have a set of guidelines let us apply them equally to all walks of life. We should ALWAYS celebrate living through another year and take the time out to look at the friends we've kept, or lost. However, this should not be a Christian-exclusive celebration - it should also encompass the logical amoung us. ;-)
name: Chris Fenstermaker
email: me202a@s.netic.de
Wednesday, 15-Dec-1999 10:47 PST
I'm far more comfortable with celebrating
Earth's farthest orbital position from the sun
than commemorating the birth of fictional
characters such as Charlie Brown, Sherlock Holmes
or Jesus Christ.
name: SandSurfer
email: dpriest@goodnet.com
Thursday, 16-Dec-1999 01:28 PST
Christmas is both secular and religious. Whether
we like it or not, we live in a Christian country,
and the country was founded by Christians. They
are the ones in power, and it's a waste of good
time to protest the "holiday" (note the derivation
of that word). However, thanks to capitalism,
Dec. 25th is now so commercialized that it's hard
to think of it as religious. Let the Christians
have their day, and the rest of us can enjoy
another day of gluttony. Sssh - that's one of
the seven deadly sins!
name: Simon L. van Woerekom
email: woerekomslvan@stu.let.leidenuniv.nl
Thursday, 16-Dec-1999 11:39 PST
In my view Christmas is today mostly a non-relious
family holiday. Most people in my country (The Netherlands) don't go to the church with Christmas, athough the celebrate Christmas with their families and friends. So it has changed from a religious holiday to a social event. I personaly think that is good that this fest is recognized by your government.
Holidays of people of other cultural groups don't belong to the Western tradition and must therefore not be promoted by the state.For the succesful integration of those minorities it seems better to me, that they also celebrate the secular Christmasholiday.
So it seems to me right that we ('the'atheists) focus our attention on more important issues.
name: Dwight Welch
email: universalist@hotmail.com
Thursday, 16-Dec-1999 18:21 PST
I suspect Christmas is a universal enough of a
holiday that the content has been rather secularized. But certainly for Christians, Christmas is important, Hannukah is important for Jews, Winter Solsitce for pagans, etc, etc
why not simply label it the Winter Holiday?
I have no prob with government setting up a Winter Holiday that priveleges no religion. I also value this time to be with friends, families, etc. and never begrudge a federal holiday :) But we can have a holiday without sectarianism. So happy holidays one and all.
name: Olga Bourlin
email: fauxever@sprynet.com
Friday, 17-Dec-1999 20:23 PST
Ever since I was in grade school (in the 1950s), I did not relish celebrating Christmas at school (even though, at the time, being a child and not knowing any better -- I was a "Christian"). For one thing, I could not ignore the fact that the Jewish children in my school just felt left out of things. I noticed the discomfort of my Jewish friends. I was an "innie" as far as celebrating Christmas was concerned, but I didn't want to be an "innie" if the cost was to not being able to share this holiday with some of my friends. By the time I was a teenager I had serious doubts about religions -- all religions -- and became a "born-again atheist." The price of being in some religious group always felt too limiting for me, but the greatest feeling I experienced when I saw the light of rationalism was the integrity of the materialist perspective.
name: R. Chinn
email: navylad@aol.com
Friday, 17-Dec-1999 20:59 PST
Geez, ain't the word christmas made up of the presumed jew of fairy tale b'hem; so how comes it ain't religious and why do there bees all those queer jews paraphenalia gracing public squares?
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