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Tell Us What You Think
name: Curt Edsall
email: cedsall@aol.com
Thursday, 26-Mar-1998 12:27 PST
The govt. should refrain from involving itself in the affairs of private
organizations. Now, having said that, I had hoped the Boy Scouts would
have responded to the Randalls with a bit more grace. It appears they
have drawn their line in the sand. I cannot condone the position taken
by the BSA organization in this case. After 17 years as an adult Scouter,
I have left. It's a sad day for the BSA.
name: Brian T. Stuart
email: btstuart@ucdavis.edu
Thursday, 26-Mar-1998 12:48 PST
The Boy Scouts is a club like any other and has
right to establish their own rules regarding
membership. The BSA has rule regarding lying,
stealing, and other actions. Should BSA change
those rules also, so that people who steal or lie
can still maintain their membership?
Moderator's note:
Liars, thieves, atheists ...
name: Kevin R. Pierce
email: kpierce@bayviewcapital.com
Thursday, 26-Mar-1998 13:25 PST
I posted the same to alt.atheism:
The following quote is from the Boy Scouts web page, describing one the
numerous "specialties" that an Explorer can pursue:
Law Enforcement. This specialty is endorsed by federal, state and local
law enforcement agencies, the International Association of Chiefs of Police,
and the National Sheriff's Association. More than 2,800 police and sheriff's
departments have organized Explorer posts specializing in law
enforcement. These posts can provide assistance in crime prevention
programs and traffic control, and as aides to patrol officers.
The from the same page we get the Explorer Code:
As an Explorer...
I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God,
and in the courage, strength and traditions of our people.
I will, therefore, be faithful in my religious duties and will
maintain a personal sense of honor in my own life.
I will treasure my American heritage and will do all I can
to preserve and enrich it.
I will recognize the dignity and worth of all humanity and
will use fair play and goodwill in my daily life.
I will acquire the Exploring attitude that seeks truth in all
things and adventure on the frontiers of our changing world.
So, does this mean that tax dollars are being spent on a youth organization
that only straight theists are allowed to join?
Does that create a barrier to certain public professions, especially law enforcement, keeping atheists and gays out?
Does this perpetuate another generation of intolerance?
- Kevin
name: Scott Mackey
email: bigmacwy@hotmail.com
Thursday, 26-Mar-1998 22:26 PST
I look at Boy Scouts the same way I look at the VFW. Both are criteria
driven membership organizations. I spent 21 years in the Air Force,
retiried and can't join the VFW because I don't meet their criteria to join.
If you don't meet the membership criteria for the Boy Scouts then they have
every right to exclude you from there ranks.
name: Max Muir
email: weezbo@yahoo.com
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 10:50 PST
I just have to wonder how it even becomes an issue. All you have to do is
mumble through the word "God" (as I did when I was in BSA) and
no one questions you. If someone asks what the oath is, you tell them,
word for word, as it is not the same as taking the oath.
When I was in BSA, ten years ago, chapel services were entirely voluntary
and I was informed that I could only get kicked out for doing something
illegal or for not believing in God. So I didn't tell anyone.
No big deal. I hardly ever bother to mention that I am atheist unless in
the company of friends or when going on one of my anti-proselytization quests.
Not when I'm joining a new club or applying for a job, however. Why bother?
name: Cary Pincus
email: pincus@aracor.com
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 12:51 PST
There are many positive aspects of scouting.
Each local organization is different. I have heard
of many positive experiences. I do not think that
their discriminatory practices are their primary
focus. They are a private organization and are
entitled to discriminate.
They should not be entitled to public funding,
however. They should also be publicly scorned for
their neanderthal attitudes. The United Way
national organization should follow the lead of
the San Francisco chapter and drop the BSA like a
hot potato.
name: David Alfaro
email: Soy007@aol.com
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 13:52 PST
I wish we had more control over where our
money/tax went. "He that has the Gold,
makes the rules." - dave -
name: Michael Koller
email: koller@freethinker.org
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 18:08 PST
If the Boy Scouts are strictly a private organization without any government
endorsement or funding, then they can apply whatever criteria
they choose for membership. However, if they are in any way
endorsed by the U.S. Government, then they most certainly have
an obligation to NOT discriminate. If the Scouts use the
President of the United States as an honorary head, then either
the Scouts should discontinue their discrimination against
homosexuals and atheists, or President Bill Clinton should
resign as the honorary head. The Scouts cannot have it both ways.
name: Andy Lancashire
email: llysfaen@bellatlantic.net
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 18:52 PST
The BSA should be allowed to discriminate as much as any other
"private group" but by doing so should not receive public money
or government support on ANY level.
name: Jeff
email: Jroulier@albany.net
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 20:01 PST
If the Boy Scouts are truely a private organization,
then they should have the right to decide who they
want as members. The only problem I have is that same
right to discriminate - which I don't necessarily always
agree with should be afforded to all private organizations
and individuals.
name: John Pavel
email: jpavel@juno.com
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 20:50 PST
It is a shame that any person, group, business or organization would want
to neglect or remove individuals from their interests but that is the price
we pay for freedom. The boy scouts are suppose to be a private organization
the government has no business helping them so the boy scouts have the right
to deny anyone. Maybe a similar group should be made to include everyone
including those who believe in a deity. At least the American Atheists can
set an example and show all others that we know people are animals and
therefore subject to bad judgement but that we will try to be understanding
and help them to be understanding to.
name: Ric Carter
email: ric@sonic.net
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 22:04 PST
As a private club, the BSA should be able to define and restrict their
membership however they wish. But if they ARE going to discriminate on
the basis of sexuality and religion, they should sever ALL ties with gov't -
renounce their Congressional charter, stop naming Presidents to honorary
leadership, refuse sponsorship from gov't bodies, hold no gatherings at
publicly-owned sites. To FAIL to take these actions, is moral and
intellectual dishonesty.
name: Dan Wilcox
email: dwilcox@efn.org
Friday, 27-Mar-1998 22:21 PST
I was a member of the boy scouts and was a very
active member of the leadership corp and order of
the arrow. The boy scouts was an excellent
opportunity to learn respect for nature and other
people and if I had a son would encourage him to
join. I also was denied by my scoutmaster to skip
the religeous oaths and was eventually barred for
life from the order of the arrow (no reason was
given but it happened within 3 months of asking
my scoutmaster to be exempt from the religeous
oaths). It was tragic that such an excellent
organization also has a problem with bigotry.
Instead of actions that would deny boys an
irreplacable experience I would rather see
encouragement to scoutmasters to form break-away
troups that teach respect and allow participation
for all.
name: Charles Fiterman
email: cef@geodesic.com
Saturday, 28-Mar-1998 04:31 PST
The California Supreme Court did the right thing.
The Boy Scouts are a private organization, just like
the K.K.K.
They can exclude who they want, just like the K.K.K.
I will picket their meetings and boycott their friends
while supporting their constitutional rights, just like
the K.K.K.
name: Sage K. Magdalene
email: anothergoddamnedatheist@juno.com
Saturday, 28-Mar-1998 06:34 PST
I think that as a private organization bsa has the right to limit its
membership and we have the right to not support. clinton needs to say
that this is not the kind of organization that he wishes to represent.
As for bsa doing good - I'm against this kind of brain washing crap for
children. bsa teaches them to not associate with/disrespect ppl who are
different (atheists, homosexuals, etc), it forces them to be brainwashed
into the "god" myth, and if I'm correct there are hunting badges,
I have a big problem with that.
name: Scott Long
email: mslong@geocities.com
Saturday, 28-Mar-1998 14:43 PST
Most of the people of this coumtry seem to be
unaware and uncaring of the religious
discrimination in this country because their
pathetic Christian religion is viewed to be the
only "correct" way. It is exactly this ignorant
attitude that is currently destroying the world.
name: Margie Wait
email: mdwait@mindspring.com
Saturday, 28-Mar-1998 19:40 PST
The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is not the "Country
Club of America," despite their desire to keep out
any boy who doesn't believe in goD(s) or lust
in his heart for a person of the opposite sex.
Contrary to popular belief, the BSA is a chartered
"patriotic society" of the United States of America.
This fact does not afford them a right to discriminate
against any boy who wants to be a member of the
Boy Scouts. Their policy actually encourages young
men to lie in order to become members of the scouting
organizations. For an organization which prides itself
on teaching its members to be honest and trustworthy
individuals, I find that highly hypocritical.
name: Monty Gaither
email: MLGATHEIST@aol.com
Sunday, 29-Mar-1998 10:55 PST
My twin brother was not only in the Boy Scouts, but was an Eagle Scout.
Now he is in jail, a theif, con-artist, and drug-addict. I was never in the
Boy Scouts, never in jail, never stold anything, and never did drugs.
We had mostly the same influences. I do not see how this association
helped him to be a better American, nor do I see how my being an Atheist
has made me a lesser American (as has been said on several occasions).
name: Colin Lee
email: passion@freethought.org
Sunday, 29-Mar-1998 11:17 PST
As an ex-Boy Scout, I'm appalled by what goes on
at the national level. I really think any
worthwhile troop doesn't need the national office.
They're disposable, but scouting should stay. The
Boy Scouts are as much a private organization as
the Hitler Jugend and they're more similar than I
once thought.
name: Ed Selby
email: eds@akorn.net
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 07:13 PST
I am the leader of my 9 year old son's Cub Scout den. I believe that
in principle Scouting offers a great deal of good to boys; however,
its continued discrimination against gays and non-theists have made me
realize that I can no longer be a leader in an organization that treats
people the way it does.
Please see the details of this internal battle at
www.akorn.net/~eds/scouts.htm.
name: Joe Zamecki
email: JoeyJoJojr@aol.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 07:31 PST
It's the Atheists gain, and the BSA's loss. Notice
they had to go to the top, the cream of the BSA,
Eagle Scouts, to find the "immorality." What does
that say about the rest of the Scouts? They're
Human?
Shame on the Bigot Scouts!
name: Michael Willis
email: bluebird@weirdness.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 07:51 PST
My brother & I were Boy Scouts in suburbian Chicago, Illinois.
We both had to quit when the local council decided to enforce the religious
requirements fully. You see, both of our parents are atheists and so are we.
We were both top scouts, having earned almost all the merit badges (besides
the religious ones) and most of the awards. The local council found out that
we had been getting awards, even without the religious parts, and told us
to either start being religious or to get out. Both of our parents were
highly active in the program by this time. They shielded us from the attacks
on the family, and as a result had to pull us out of the program. By this
time I was a Boy Scout with my Life award (one below Eagle) and by brother
was an Arrow of Light award winner in Cub Scouts (highest award in Cub Scouts).
It hurt being pulled away from so many friends, just because I was different.
From then until now, I have made sure that I only join organizations that
claim they do not discriminate against religion. This way I can not be told
the same thing again.
name: Paul Albee
email: albeepau@cps.msu.edu
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 09:55 PST
The current policies of the Boy Scouts are enough
to make me sick. I went through Boy Scouts and
earned the rank of Eagle. The only real dealings
we had with religion is that we met at a church.
Today I feel extremely uncomfortable supporting
the BSA.
name: Fox T. FiZZ
email: ftfizz@yahoo.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 09:56 PST
The Boy Scouts teach discrimation to young boys and that is flat out wrong.
50 years ago they practiced racial segregation and it appears that the way of
prejudice and intolerance are still a part of there program.
name: Syd Solstice
email: sydsolstice@hotmail.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 10:12 PST
I think a lawsuit of some kind should be filed against the BSA since they are
taking our hard earned tax dollars and then discriminating against those of us
tax payers who happen to be Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists. If they won't sever
their own ties to public funds then we should do it for them.
name: Joshua P. Henry
email: jhenry@netdoor.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 12:28 PST
The Boy Scouts of America has grown into a cultural icon. It is the single
most successful youth organization in the world. Its growth and prestige have
grown because of its core values. These values emphasis the believe in a
God. Why then would anyone want the BSA to discontinue a practice that, if
anything, has only helped it to grow and become the ultimate tool to
positively develop youth? Simple, others can do no better. They know that
the BSA program is unmatched. Therefore, instead of starting their own, they
would rather attack and change the BSA. I think this demonstrates the inherit
weakness of an organization that is unwilling to stand for anything. The
BSA stands for something and takes the heat for it. That's why they grow and
are the one last means on earth for creating the greatest leaders of our time.
That's what leader means -- stand for something, enlarge it to your friends,
practice it in your family, share it with humanity. Changing the BSA is not
the logical answer. The answer is to be brave, stand up for what you believe
in (or lack thereof), and dare to develop your own program and organization.
The answer is not to attack a cultural icon and try to get 90% of the
publicity for a demographic which is only representative of 10% of the people.
Unless, of course, you are convinced that one man can't make a difference.
Baden Powell was only one man, what a difference he has made. You can too,
with out the help of the BSA.
name: Jeff Moore
email: jeffmo@cfw.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 14:52 PST
After I first heard about the issue of discrimination
by Scout leaders, coupled with Scouting's close
intermingling with government, recruiting in public
schools, etc., I sent off a letter to the national
Girl Scout leadership (I have a school-age daughter,
but no sons).
Well, it turns out the Girl Scouts are permitted to
give an alternate affirmation, according to individual
conscience, which need not include any god-reference.
Is it *really* a coincidence that straight male
theists are always so far behind the times? Could it
be that those traditionally empowered by the status
quo are also the most loath to change it, even for
logically-unassailable reasons?
name: The_Skeptic_USA(I prefer semi-anonymity)
email: The_Skeptic_USA@Yahoo.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 15:06 PST
The decision whether to resign/repudiate his honorary position with BSA rests
with President Clinton. The BSA requires that members subscribe to certain
oaths, promises, and beliefs. Such are inherent to their collective
self-definition of their voluntary association with each other. Those who do
not fit the definition do not belong. If I don't pay my Rotary dues, I
don't belong. And since I believe in God, maybe I don't belong in any
Athiests' organizations, if such a profession of disbelief is part of what
that membership believes.
BTW, I do support what you guys and gals do to prevent GOVERNMENT from
punishing people for their beliefs.
T.S.
name: Bob Neifert
email: BobNeifert@aol.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 15:20 PST
A scout came to my door the other day asking for contributions for a local
charity which I would normally support. It was sad to turn him away, and
sadder still that I was unprepared to tell him why. If there is a next time
I'll ask him to recite the Boy Scouts' oath. If it still has the religious
clauses I parrotted, I'll point them out to him to show that scouting remains
a religious organization, and that I no longer support religious organizations.
A scout is old enough to hear that, and perhaps to become a better citizen
by thinking it over, thoughhe probably doesn't yet realize that he belongs
to one. I didn't.
name: Arlene Holloman
email: redarlen@ix.netcom.com
Monday, 30-Mar-1998 19:58 PST
My husband was in scouting all his life and rose
to District Commissioner before our marriage.
When our relationship became serious, he was excited
about having my son join him in scouting. When we
were engaged, a case about a child in his district not
being allowed in scouting hit the news. He told them
that his future son, who would be 6 when we got married,
had an atheist for a mother. He was told that he could
remain with the scouts but his stepson wouldn't be allowed in.
Naturally, he quit. Could you imagine him leaving for
a camping trip with other boys & telling his son he couldn't go along!!!
He kept in touch with the other father who had litigation going.
Both of them joined the YMCA Indian Guides in their respective
communities with no problem. To us the "Great Spirit" was
simply nature. The Young Men's Christian Association's Director
at the time knew I was an Atheist. We also found out that ours
wasn't the only agnostic/atheist family in his tribe. The YMCA
has not crumbled because of our presence. It's too bad the
Boys Scouts of America can't teach its children a little
open-mindedness.
name: Kylie McFerrin
email: mck411@postoffice.swbell.net
Tuesday, 31-Mar-1998 07:53 PST
I am outraged at the Boy Scouts of America's total insensitivity toward
these boys. The message they are giving their members and the world is that
it is wrong to be different. Most atheists and homosexuals I know have
better morals than any Christian I have ever met.
name: charles brown
email: cbrown@umi.com
Tuesday, 31-Mar-1998 09:10 PST
The Boy scouts should be able to choose their own
path, and exclude anyone they do not want.
However, because of this they have no right to get
any type of Federal or State assistance, only
private.
name: Ben C.
email: coolw@hotmail.com
Tuesday, 31-Mar-1998 15:33 PST
As a person well versed in anti-discriminatory laws, BSA do fall under the
jurisdiction of the court due to the fact that it is partially publicaly
funded. In fact more money comes from taxpayers than private orginization.
So why should the BSA be sheilded from anti-discriminatory laws?
They shouldn't.
name: Jim Rogers
email: j.rogers@nospam.pobox.com
Tuesday, 31-Mar-1998 16:31 PST
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was a member of this
club and derived great value from it. I can no longer consider the
BSA a viable option for my own children, due to the discrimination.
But it's a private club, and the proper response is to withdraw all
government support and connection to it. Churches, likewise, should
all be treated as private social clubs and not granted any special
favors by the government (such as tax exemptions). There's a huge
need for a secular organization like the BSA, "for the rest of us."
name: Donald Hirschberg
email: dhirsch@centuryinter.net
Tuesday, 31-Mar-1998 20:53 PST
While it was of course disappointing that the atheist scouts lost their case
in California, my disappointment is mitigated by the fact that the decision
seemed to have turned on whether or not the BSA is a private organization -
which I don't think it is. However, I think we would all be very unhappy
if American Atheists would be forced under similar arguments to admit
religious believers as members.
name: George Shaver
email: liberty1@cts.com
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 07:24 PST
As long as the Boy Scouts of America take tax funds and/or public funds,
they should not be allowed to discriminate in any way.
name: Robert T. Gross
email: bobtgross@aol.com
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 08:15 PST
Secular organizations must form their own
'scouts' and other public service organizations
which are pointedly non-theistic.
name: Richard A. Angorn
email: angorn@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 11:59 PST
Clinton is a depraved individual. If he resigned from the BSA, his resignation
could stir up anti-Atheist feelings. I think that he should not be asked to
resign. We do not need "bedfellows" such as Clinton.
name: HolyTerror
email: phillips.robert@usa.net
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 12:12 PST
The BSA, I believe, has every right to discriminate if it is a private
institution. However, it is clearly not. It's sources of funding and
freedom to enlist at schools (amongst other things) demonstrates a conflict
with first amendment rights and Church/State seperation.
I would personally like to see the BSA brought to its knees begging the
American people for its forgiveness. -R
name: johnpizer
email: johnpizer@juno.com
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 12:50 PST
The BSA is a private organization and is being consistent with its previous
record on racial discrimination (and still defacto). The more public media
attention these cases get the more widely they will be known for their
discriminatory policies. The only way to influence them is to increase
public awareness.
We, AA, should do anything we can to protest public funds going to BSA.
And get the message out as to why BSA should not have any public funding.
name: Jim Heldberg
email: jimhpac@aol.com
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 12:52 PST
When I was growing up, the guys in Scouts were always the trouble-makers.
BSA is always re-defining itself, and always getting in trouble doing so.
It's paramilitary orientation was offensive to VietNam peace protestors,
for instance.
If they want to be paramilitary, maybe they should use the same admission
standards as the military. Atheists get into the miliary just fine.
Bill Clinton should dump the BSA, just as most American boys do.
He's a little old for BSA foolishness, just like he's too old for religious
foolishness. But I'm sure he's gotten in enough prolitical trouble earning
his skirt-chasing merit badge that he'll ignore this whole issue.
name: John Hicks
email: jhicks@premier.net
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 13:12 PST
The main focus of the Boy Scouts is one of discipline. This, in itself,
rules out accomodation. Some will reject the discipline that the Boy Scouts
espouse, be it physical, mental, moral or spiritual. In rejecting their
discipline, they are themselves rejecting the fundamental beliefs of the
organization. In this light, they themselves are choosing to not abide by
the rules and regulations of the Boy Scouts.
If I (as a Christian) joined your organization, but *refused* to abide by
your rules since I fundamentally disagree with them, then I suspect that I
would be equally unwelcome.
name: Martin Blazevich
email: blaze@hotmail.com
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 13:19 PST
It appears that the BSA have traded racial bigotry
of the 1950's for that of religion and sexual
orientation of the 1990's. From pulpit to the minds
of our future generations, the garbage spews...
As repugnant as this may be, it's their right as a
private institution, BUT they can no longer be eligible
for government subsidies or financial support in any way.
If the Neo-Nazis and the KKK are not eligible for tax
payer money, then neither are the Boy Scouts of America.
No child is born a bigot. But, he can *learn* to be at the BSA.
name: Robert LoBue
email: roblobue@yahoo.com
Wednesday, 01-Apr-1998 16:16 PST
I have written several letter to my local newsrag( Orange County Register).
Even though it is about as far to the right as main stream press could go,
they printed my first letter when this all started 4 or 5 years ago. Now they
are firmly supportive of the BSA. They even had an editorial appluading the
courts for supporting the BSA's right to continue to "build values"
in America's children. I guess they didn't like my comments as to them
building values like intolorance and hatred because that was one letter they
chose not to print! Keep up the good work!
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